I wanted to make a page where we can discuss the meaning, the history and the influences behind The Zelda games' most beloved characters, you kinow why they do the things they do, what could have they done differently, why do we like these characters so and what it means to us? I'm just trying to explore these characters without subjigating to the will of "OH HE'S KOOL CAUSE HE'S KOOL, DUH LOL ROFL LMNOP!!!^^;", the juvinile fan boy mentality that permeates most fanbases like this one...kinda like a Twilight in our Hyrule

This week I chose a character who's motives and mentality are overlooked because of his fearsome reputation: Ganondorf Dragmire, also known as Ganon The supposed "King of Evil", who is looked at as the sort of equavalent to Satan or George Bush in Hyrule, but I look at him as more of a Stalin or Castro. Believe it or not, there was actually methodology to all his madness, lost in a sea of greed and even the Evil One has a chance at some of redemption.

Ganondorf's history is vauge at first but according to Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, his life was not exactly peaches and roses, regardless that he was the only male in The Gerudo Tribe and thus treated like royalty. His social status almost reminds me of the words of Aristotle and Nietzsche regarding the original context of "Good and Bad": that only the rich, the noble, the strong and the gifted where "good" and everyone else was "bad". This type of social standing is somewhat prolifent in Hyrule, cause it seems only the Hylians and those in contact with The Golden Power are fortunate enough to live in fancy castles, quiant villages, and grassy green plains. Everyone else gets well..living in a mountain of death, swiming in a dank cave, or in our villian's case, starving in a harsh desert.

For Ganondorf, every day was a fight for survival whether it be for the elements, the lack of resources of his people or the grueling training he must have recived from the Gerudos in order to become the King of Theives. Any one of these could have created this warrior/conquerer mentality, the Darwinist outlook of "The Strong Survives and The Weak are Destroyed" and in comparision to the happy, carefree lifestyle of being a pointy eared elf, may have created a certain bitterness in him, which soon gave way to anger, which gave way to rage, which gave way to greed....and greed turns you into a pig

And who knows what Koutake and Koume has been putting into that fur browed young head of his. Thier motivations into evil are as mysterious as Ganondorf's...but if they managed to go to heaven after they died in Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, they may not be so bad and perhaps it was merely Ganon.

Finally, I want to quote the man himself regarding his motivations, again from Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker:

"My country lay within a vast desert, when the sun rose into the sky a burning wind punished my lands, searing the world. And when the moon climbed into the dark of night, a frigid gale pierced our homes. No matter when it came the wind carried the same thing... Death. But the winds that blew across the green fields of Hyrule brought something other than suffering and ruin. I coveted that wind, I suppose. It can only be called fate... That here, I would again gather the three with the crests... That I should lay my hand on that which grants the wishes of the beholder... That when power, wisdom, and courage come together, the gods would have no choice but to come down... The power of the gods... The Triforce! He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted!" ~Ganondorf

So before I continue this discussion, I want to present to you my first question:

Was Hyrulian society responsible for creating their greatest menace? Or should we believe in the tired and true tale that Ganondorf was just born bad to begin with?

Again, pleeeeease don't be a douche about it. If you agree, give good examples. If you don't, still give good examples. Don't write this off just because of the games' convulted storylines or their crappy continuity, I want to know what is the facination and appeal of these characters in relations to our own world, so speak up and speak well.

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For the first time...meet the elf...again...from the end.

This is a very good idea for a thread, and I hope to see more characters scrutinized in such a manner in the future. I personally think Ganondorf was driven by greed to try and claim the Triforce, but wasn't as evil as he was made out to be. He probably saw the Triforce as a way out of the desert but didn't know exactly what he was getting himself into.

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That's what I think too. Money and power are some sources of pure evil. He got ahold of Power, the triforce we are accoustumed to letting him have. Then he wanted more. He wanted the other peices, as we know, Wisdom ( Zelda's ) and Courage ( Link's ). Soon he wanted to control absoultely everything. Greed does turn you into a pig.

Ganon does remind me of a dictator and Satin. Ganon is now the source of all evil, Satin, but would like to control Hyrule and wants absolute power, dictator. Remember in OoT, when it was explained to us about the checks and balances. Ganon keeps going after the triforces while Link and Zelda stop him. It keeps the land of Hyrule in check, I believe.


And yes this is a clever thread
♪Music

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Thank you for finally responding, I thought this thread was not capable to have an intelliectual discussion but I guess I was wrong :) Moving on...

So with his past dealt with, let's hop to his first act of malevolance. After consuming so much rage and anger all his life, at an age of late adolecense, Ganondorf Dragmire had had enough and figure he do something about it. He researched into the ancient texts and sought knowledge about the Golden Power, the supposed source of power for the Royal Family. If he could steal the power, he may take what , at the time, was meant for his people, so The Gerudos could have the privilage and prestige that came with The Golden Power.

And so, Ganondorf declared war on all of Hyrule. Now the most famous villians in the world use their rage of other circumstances to put in use of world domination: Doctor Doom and Darth Vader uses his anger over the loss of their mothers and their arrogance as excuses to rule the world. Ganondorf has bitternes and grandeur thoughts of a bole crusade as his excuse. And thus....the war began.

Ganondorf and the Gerudos fought for many years, willing to destroy anything in their way to take what they thought was rightfully theirs, that Darwinistic approach to looking at things, "Survival of the Fittest" , lead them to this path. But financially, going to war was the first mistake Ganondorf made. A good general knows when to go to war when you have good resoruces and tactical prowess and while Ganondorf was very good tactician, he was more of a aleader by example and unfortunetly, that is not good when your resources are little to none. The Gerudos fought well but they where helpess to the super power that was Hyrule.

In fact anybody that went after the Tri-Force soon met with a horrible fate, and thas how we got the Imprisoning Wars. If The Legend of Zelda was meant to be this grand, epic, tale of fantasy in akin to Tolkien's legendary saga, then let the Tri-Force be the "one ring to rule them all". But of course Ganondorf did nopt give up and started resorting to treachery and deception, desperation for victory slowly turning him into the monster we all love to hate.

So my next question being: Are people willing to kill and die for The TriForce because of greed and envy or does the TriForce itself call out those who seek it and changes their destinies, like The One Ring? Does The Tri-Force has a mind of it's own?

BONUS QUESTION FOR ANY RTS BUFFS: What would have been a better strategy for Ganondorf and The Gerudos going into the Imprisioning War and would it have changed everything or not made a difference?

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For the first time...meet the elf...again...from the end.

What about a bad triforce? Kind of like power=corruption, or Triforce of power = Triforce of corruption. Just throwing things up there for discussion.

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Status: Olloboro Gym Leader

Wins:4 Losses:1

Yeah I was kinda thinking about that...in fact, remember the old 80's Zelda toon? (Of course you do, you guys just don't want to ) Well remember that like in the game, Ganon was in posesion of the Triforce of Power and it had a malevolent influence inside it and Zelda's Triforce of Wisdom had a belovalent influence.

Yes, I do know that this show is far from Zelda canon and they where missing one Triforce, but it does bring up the after effects of having a Triforce within you. Along with the chance of being re-incarnated/ressurected every century (more on that later), access to holy weapons, increase in magical power, and all that other stuff, it could change your behavior, which now leads me to the next part of the discussion: We're finally going into the games here, starting with my 2nd least favorite Zelda of all time (TP is now my #1 hated): The Ocarina of Time

The War is over and peace has been settled, but for Ganondorf the fight has only yet begun. Posing in the guise of a truce, Ganondorf's strategy now called for deception and cunning instead of brute force: he will start to build trust in the king, get close to him and his family and learn all he can about the Golden Power, and when the time was right...he'd kill the royal family and take what was rightfully for his pe-....no, at this point, desperation drove him to seek victory above all else and not for The Gerudos, but for himself.

Of course he never counted on the inteferance of Princess Zelda and well.....this little guy over here

say hello Link
YAAAAH
thas close enough....it's sad really, the fate of the world on his shoulders and he never even graduated kindergarden

It's any wonder why Ganondorf chose to leave this bastard alive when he could have killed him. Or rather his mind was pre-occupied with other thoughts....if there were any at all. As more time passed and Ganondorf dwellved more into the dark powers of sorcery , he made more and more rash decisions, making mistakes when he shouldn't and ignoring all common sense in favor of progress. Is if the Golden Power itself cought him in a trance and he was but a victim of it's madness...maybe. It's when that moment he let Link into the Temple of Time and put him on freeze for 7 years, did the man once known as Ganondorf Dragmire, The King of Thieves crossed the line in to the realm of villiany so many have took before him..

and killed all his fateful followers (as told in Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past)

It was when he entered the Sacred Realm, he did so as Ganondorf, The King of Evil

So the next question is : What could have drove him to such lenghts as murder and devestation on a genocidal scale? Did the all the war, bitterness, defeat and the temptation of The Triforce drove this once great warrior to insane madnesss? Or was he in full control of all his actiona and is just one evil heartless bastard?

Yes I know this is the evil Ganondorf we're talking bout and I know all you fangirls will rather vote for your big hunk of elvin tigh wearing love, but be fair for this question and really give me your thoughts on this one. I'd like to know if there are different perceptions to this character other than the "generic evil villian".

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For the first time...meet the elf...again...from the end.

This is an interesting thread. I personally believe that the Triforce does have an affect on whomever holds it.

As you pointed out, Ganondorf wanted to take Hyrule for his people in the beginning. Now, despite the fact that he was trying to conquer another land that wasn't rightfully his, he was doing it in the best interest of his people. However, defeat rubbed him the wrong way, and it did become more of a personal battle than a grand crusade to better his peoples' lives. And then he got hold of the Triforce...

He really could have been a great ruler. Maybe not completely just, but a great ruler nonetheless. But the Triforce piece he held slowly poisoned him, just as Zelda's and Link's poisoned them. Think for a moment, if you will: Kid Zelda's idea of opening up the Sacred Realm was downright foolish, something only a child would conceive as a masterful plan. How, then, did she become so wise when she was older? I have the answer. She was in possession of the Triforce of Wisdom, that's why!

And also, no one can argue that Link was a brave kid, but do you really think he would have charged into places like the Forest Temple and the Well (let alone the Shadow Temple!) if he was simply brave in his own right? No. I do believe that his Triforce piece was pushing him that way, giving him courage beyond what most (mortal) people are capable of, just as Ganondorf's gave him power beyond what most mortals are capable of.

But that's just my bit.

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What you do today will echo an eternity.

<(^_^<) ^(^_^)^ (>^_^)> ^(^_^)^

Do the Kirby dance!

Sry for not replying so soon, I was busy with some projects. Anyways, thank you Kinda_Mayvelle for those comments, that was what I was going for: That even with their incredible natural talents, at the end of the day, it seems their very natures are not only amplified but inherited from the triforce because if not, Zelda would still have the intellect of a child, Link will still have the fears of a child and Ganondorf may have had the clairty of reason of adulthood...well as far reason is to Ganondorf anyways. I, personally, has always looked of the destiny of the Triforce as more of a curse than ablessing...and I'll explain that in a little later.

So now we all know what happened next: Ganondorf went on to rule Hyrule for 7 years while Link had to adjust to the apocalyptic future and late born puberty This time, there was nothing left of the noble conquerer that was Ganondorf Dragmire, rather inside the King of Evil layed a beast of terrible power, a beast who would come to be known as Ganon, The King of Evil. This beast would drive Ganondorf to unparalled megolomania and ruthlessness that would define the character for years. Inevatibily, the beast consumed him completely in the final climatic battle, when Ganondorf transformed into the demonic Ganon, only to be defeated and sealed away in the Dark Realm for an everlasting damnation of ressurection, defeat and death...and unlike the other two, he has to remember every moment of his eternal curse...forever!

And what is this eternal curse you say? That due to the Triforce's connection with the Kingdom of Hyrule, as long as there is a Triforce, there will be a) a princess named Zelda in need of rescue b) an evil demon pig named Ganon who threatens the kingdom and finally c) a tiny uneducated, naive and lazy elf named Link to save us all, however for as much as Link saves the day, Hyrule will never know everlasting peace as long as there is Triforce...and neither may any of the bearers.

For you see The Goddesses has seem to need a pattern in order for Hyrule to maintain existence: Power must bring War, Courage must bring Salvation and Knowledge must bring peace and thus the bearers of the Triforce are forever DAMNED...yes DAMNED into fighting each other for all eternity. Yes, it's a sad way of thinking but it's the truth: For all her hopes, Zelda will never know true peace and happiness as the threats upon her life and her kingdom will never cease...and she never knows why. For all his efforts, Link will never know true peace and happiness as he is forever waging a war against a foe he must always defeat again and again and again...and he will never know.

And Ganon, poor Ganon, he got it worst: He will always try to escape his wretchet fate but his madnining power will compell him to conquer and he will eventually fail again, and again...and unlike the other two, he must bear with the knowledge for century upon century, daming him to forever fail for all eternity...to him, The Dark Realm is home sweet home and the trips to Hyrule is the equivalent to entering Hell itself.

So my new question: If he had knew his fate before hand, to suffer eternally under the hand of fate, would Ganondorf have done things differently? Would he have changed or would his arrogance blinded him to the truth?

Bonus Question: What do you think of this theory? Are the bearers of the Triforce forever damned to engage in eternal combat for centuries or is this simply coincidence and it's just Ganon's resolve to kill Link and all his decendents?

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For the first time...meet the elf...again...from the end.

In answer to the second question, I do believe that they are forever damned to wage war against one another. Balance is key, and when you have Ganon, Zelda and Link forced through the washer cycle for all eternity, caught and bound like helpless insects within the great web of fate and motivational irony, then what else could they do, but strive for freedom that may seem so near but is so far away? What else could they do, then struggle haplessly against the power and will of the Triforce, and by extension the Goddesses? They were truly the Chosen, the relative embodiments of their respective pieces to keep and restore balance when necessary.

Take, for example, if you will, the case with Majora's Mask. I'd be both arrogant and stupid to believe that I was the only one who noticed that, in the beginning when you are first turned into Deku Link, the Skull Kid was hovering above a symbol etched into the earth--the Triforces of Wisdom and Power stayed connected, but Courage had been thrown out of the equation, and thus balance, by Link's inadvertant journey to Termina. Notice, then, the events that consumed the last moments of Hyrule before the Wind Waker--Ganon came again, as terrible and mad with/for power as before, and Zelda was there, but Link was not--the equation, the balance had been tipped, and now Ganon had more power and influence over the world than he rightfully should have. In response, the Goddesses swept down, picked up a few chosen people to move to the mountaintops and rained icy cold, wet death upon the land to seal Ganon away, because the balance could not be restored without Link, and the Triforce piece he carried off into another land.

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What you do today will echo an eternity.

<(^_^<) ^(^_^)^ (>^_^)> ^(^_^)^

Do the Kirby dance!

Wow..I apologize for not keeping this updated, I was busy with things and I thought I be getting much more responses. But you know I should finish this topic and do another, more relevant topic.

Basically, you all know how this sad tale of anger, war, decpetion and greed ends. Ganondorf Dragmire is forever cursed to reside in the Dark Realm and attempt to escape so he can rule over Hyrule only to be dragged back down to the fiery depths by an elf named Link and a princess named Zelda. Now a wiser man would have stopped right there and reside to his fate but somehow time was not enough for the former King of The Gerudos, centuries of exile wouldn't escape Ganondorf's Rage...or maybe he could, but Ganon wouldn't have it.

As Ganon, he has continually terrorized Hyrule with schemes that some may say are very predictable, formuliac, and even foolish: as if Ganon wanted to be stopped by a lil blonde gnome And more and more, Ganon stopped using his cunning and just went off and started destroying things left and right.

So my final question for this topic would be: If Ganon still holds all his memories from the centuries he is imprisoned, why does he persist in doing things the same way, to the point of repeating tactics and attacks? Why can't Ganondorf see the futility of his conduct?

I mean damn it G-Man, How many times are you gonna play frikkin Ping-Pong with explosive energy before you get the message?! And will you stop with the dissapearing act, it's getting old.

It went upon 100 years after his intial defeat that Ganon came close to a break: He rose from the depths of Hryule to conquer and devestate and wouldn't you know it, the Hero of Time just happen to take a vacation, so there was no one to stop them...other than devine retribution. It took the entire kingdom of Hryule with him in it, forzen forever beneath the sea to finally calm the rage of the King of Evil. Claritfinally set into the Gerudos for the first time in centuries and he actually contemplated his fate. But of course when opportunity came knocking, and he broke out, he could not resist another chance at glory and power.

And so it was written, in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, The King of Evil made one last attempt at conquering Hyrule, in a future where it was simply a legend under the seas. But he did this not as Ganon, The Demon Pig but Ganondorf Dragmire, The Gerudo King of Theives who's years of contemplation made him more weary and meloncholic. He knew first hand that another Link and Zelda where on their way to stop him and even though he made measures to halt their progress, he didn't care...and somehow, in the back of his mind, Ganondorf knew that if he did not succeed this time...there won't be a second or a thrid time; this was going to end one way or another....and hopefully you've played the game by now and witnessed the phenominal final battle.

I want to thank everyone who kep this topic alive and had interest in the tale of Ganondorf to look at him from another light. Hopefully, I'll give more time to de-contructing the other two pieces of The Zelda puzzle and maybe I'll get some more responses there as well.

For Waxing Philosophic on Ganondorf, this Elf Yakuza signing off.

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For the first time...meet the elf...again...from the end.